A call to reason.

[Jeffery Martin Cromer]

We must take the beliefs of Gods out of the equation. Reality is not that frightening without them. When you found out Santa wasn't real you survived. Its time we own up to what we've done to the Earth and each other in pursuit of personal salvation and the corporate dogma of owning material goods. Take some responsibility, and stop passing every thing off on to the silly idea that its all part of some elaborate incomprehensible plan. You are already saved, your brain is god, and all it requires is good knowledge.
Also as you read this take into account how many different gods have come in and out of popularity throughout the ages, and ask yourself this: Which one is really the true one? Popular Christianity says that the only path to god is through there Christ, in an attempt to solidify its dominance on your mind. As do the other plethora of religions you have to choose from, with all there similar saviors. Is it possible that there all in fact wrong in there assertations to be reality based, or factual? If you think about it with reason in your heart you will find that yes indeed they are beyond reasonable doubt provably fictitious, or of the imagination.
Also ask your self this, what truly good, or non corrupt, reality based things have ever happened from these ideas? Little to none, the most religions can boast about is there ability to narrow minds, oppress peoples, divide peoples, start wars, and usually dominate women.
Think about this. At least atheist people are accountable for there actions. They don't go around blaming unseen forces for there good or bad decisions. They know that there actions fall where they belong, on them. Dose this not seem like a healthier way of existence? As appose to people walking around claiming "I didn't wanna rape that girl a devil made me do it" or "I didn't wanna kill that person a demon made me do it". Come on people. Its time we wake up and accept the truth, I mean shit, if religion was on fair trial it would lose miserably and go to jail.
Let us take back our minds and have reason and personal responsibility flourish. The dark ages are over its time we let the light shine for all. We could all be so good together. Money and religion are the biggest dividers of men, ITS TIME WE DEFEAT THEM, before they defeat us. All religious texts were written by men. MEN. So I say we write some new ones!

[Lillian Rain Smith]

Awesome to see you two talking! :)

[Jeffery Martin Cromer]

To be clear I'm not as angry as I was when I was say 18 and found out for sure that this way of life was a lie. I was just angry with you. It was silly, but I'm only 24 so I still allow it to happen sometimes. I bet your a nice person and a dedicated one. Yes please check out the book its not very long. Also I feel coupled with Zeitgeist knowledge, the two would be unstoppable in awakening others to these realities we understand. I'm sure you know allot but and can never hurt to learn more. So I beg you when you have the time check it out! Thank you for accepting my apology  I hope in the future after you read the book, and maybe his others, we may do some work together. So people wont have to suffer any more because money and greed dictate contemporary life. Hope to be in touch soon, thanks Daniel.

[Daniel Z]

Thanks for the apology, Jeff.  I too used to be very angry.  When you find out you've been lied to by everyone for your entire life, it's hard not to erupt.  But I've come to realize there's only one person who can affect how I feel, and that's myself.  I'll check that book out when I get a moment.

[Jeffery Martin Cromer]

Yeah I got an ego but where I grew up I was never able to talk about shit like this with people because they were worried about cloths and toys, my bad for that. I don't wanna be a enemy with you. I really want you to read that book so you'd understand where I'm coming from more. My last comment was condescending,  I apologize. It was out of anger... No I don't just do this from home since I was 18 I've been spreading the work of Daniel Quinn, you may have heard of Ishmael  He was saying what peters is saying just in a different and more whole way since 1991, before internet and all that. My goal coming to this site was to help merge zeitgeist with Quinn knowledge to open eyes wider...I am sorry for my trolling sincerely...I hope you check out Quinn s work and talk with me, Its really really good...I think we good do something good if we put aside our anger... sincerely jeff, again I apologize... 

[Jeffery Martin Cromer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Civilization

[Jeffery Martin Cromer]

lol, so simple...read the book I suggested, than talk to me.

[Daniel Z]

How was it out of anger and condemnation?  I called your view on religion perverted because that seems to be the fact.

"Religion says that the most important thing in life you can do is secure your place in heaven, in other word your personal salvation is more important than anything."

- This is indeed a perverted statement.  This is not what all religions teach.  And if you only see the negative side of religions, that's your problem.  I, myself, don't give a shit what anyone believes, because I will not let their infantile beliefs affect mine.

Why would you take this as an insult?  Again, that's your ego clashing with what is presented as fact. You said a perverted statement, and I merely called you out on it.  I didn't insult you at all.

"That's all I'm 23 and I don't do such things unless provoked, so I just figured you were still un-matured.  Calling someone perverted is a derogatory remark, as is ' Perhaps you cannot 
speak without using childish insults?' When you started the insults as you 
continually fail to see."

- I called your view perverted, not you, Jeffrey.  Again, release your ego.  I never insulted anyone.  I feel bad for you if you're offended merely over the fact that someone called you out on your view on religion.  If religion really affects you that much, you're almost worse off than the actual religious people.

I understood the sentence, because I'm not uneducated, as you so clearly like to say that I am (but in of course a more personal, childish attack).  Grammar is indeed important, especially as we work with machines, as they require precise data entry to function properly.

Ignore my insults?  You haven't ignored anything.  You are also way too egotistical to take hear any other opinions other than your own.

Global commune huh?  Do you know anything about the Venus Project?  Your idea is a joke.  How would you start implementing your plan?  With one, local commune?  Thought so.

Please, delete your account.  I've been spending way too much time responding to you talking in circles.  My guess is you do all your activism at home anyway.  Good, stay there.

[Jeffery Martin Cromer]

You called a concept I presented to inspire difference in thought, one you assumed
was my own, or I held fully, perverted first, out of anger and condemnation.
Hence starting the childish insults, go back and look. As I've explained I'm not
angry, and also as I've explained you threw the first childish insult, maybe you
need go somewhere else?

Only matters because you calling someone perverted because they say something to
you that you don't agree with, or understand is a childish thing to do. That's all
I'm 23 and I don't do such things unless provoked, so I just figured you were still un-matured.
Calling someone perverted is a derogatory remark, as is " Perhaps you cannot
speak without using childish insults?" When you started the insults as you
continually fail to see.

I give myself that right. As I previously stated I'm not into condemnation, its
like prayer, a waist of time, I'm into education, except when provoked by people
such as you, who sadly seem to need it the most.

"Please get off your high horse and examine yourself before you pass judgment on
others." "You have a perverted concept on religions." "No, I do not get this at
all, I've only been involved with The Zeitgeist Movement since it's inception.
Your ignorance is overwhelming." Daniel Z. Need I say more? Also grammar is of
the least relevance, you understood the sentence did you not?

Facebook.com/The b Following you'll see what I'm doing there, things like
exposing people to thoughts the main stream doesn't and having debates, so when
people read them they may learn something. I'll be the bigger man here and ignore 
your insults since they obviously steam from a inferiority complex or some other
issue you may need help with. You twist my word never did I say a person is a
retard if they don't agree with me, I said that if me presenting a view different 
than one you held gets me called perverted, than your a retard, for being so
ignorant. Yet MY ignorance is overwhelming, right.

My hypocrisy ? When you began the insults, and continue them in your current post?
I think we may need a mirror here. One thing about humans is if you give them
negativity first they will reciprocate it.

Perhaps I did take it personally, that's what humans do. So next time your
presented with something you don't agree with, instead of having a knee jerk
reaction from your anger, you should stop and think how what you say may affect
the person your saying it to. Especially in real life, when that person could just
snap and hurt you. When you can hide behind a computer screen sure its fine.

I'm curious, because I see from your conditioning that you think civilization is
a good thing, what is this full civilization you speak of? What would daily life
in it consist of?

No, I am aware of what a commune is, so to proceed for your understanding, think
of it as a global commune, as was my proposal, but you immediately though small,
commune, no, try applying it globally. You seem somewhat intelligent, a bit
misguided, as are all of us, but you should read Beyond Civilization by Daniel
Quinn, it will, guaranteed, enlighten you more, you obviously are now, somewhat, but if you
think Civilization is a good way for humans to make a living, not that there is
one right way for humans to live, your still missing the big picture.

I attempted a debate and you just in salted me a few times from your high horse. I
will not try again. I will no longer reply to anything you say to me, as it is as
I already said, a waist of my time. Some people are just stubborn or what you
could call, an old mind. I'm sorry I couldn't teach you anything, but read the
book if you'd like to understand what is actually going on in the world. I will
be most likely deleting my account to this particular site, if you don't first out of spite and anger, if people like you can get to positions of power on it, I can't be apart of it. Also I will be copying this
entire conversation so that others in other places can learn things. So I at least 
thank you for that, guess it wasn't a total waist of time. Have a nice life
Daniel, I wish you the best in whatever it is you actually do.(Don't worry I will change your name in any re postings)

[Daniel Z]

Jeffrey, I believe I've warned you enough.  Your anger and condemnation will not stand around here.  If you wish to discuss something like an adult, I would be more than willing to join in.  Perhaps you cannot speak without using childish insults?  If this is the case, please go somewhere else.

"How old are you jr?" (don't old people call people junior as a derogatory remark?)

- 29.  Why does this matter to you?

" I'm condemning stupidity like ... stupid people..."

- Who gives you the right to say what is stupid and what is not stupid?  And if you wish to condemn something, perhaps religion is the correct path for you?

"I think you have a closed mind because when In I said something you didn't agree with you called me perverted, instead of trying to understand what I meant, make seance dumb ass? If I'm perverted than your a retard!"

- This sentence is riddled with grammatical and spelling errors.  Yet you call me a dumb ass and a retard?  Please get off your high horse and examine yourself before you pass judgment on others.

"I don't wish to change the social landscape. I wish to go further than that and create a new way of life, ya' know one when people don't have to work for money to get food, a naturally occurring thing that should be free for all, humans work harder than anything to feed them selves yet we're so superior  if you can get that. "

- This is indeed what is meant by "changing the social landscape."  No, I do not get this at all, I've only been involved with The Zeitgeist Movement since it's inception.  Your ignorance is overwhelming.  Now please tell me what you're doing to go further than changing the social landscape, other than spreading messages about how you're superior to everyone and how if everyone does not think the same way as you that they are "retards."

"So I ask you, to begin our debate, what is civilization, when and how did it start, by that I mean what did humans start doing differently?, and what was the natural way of life that existed before that?"

- Finally.  Something I'm glad you asked.  I believe we have not reached a true civilization yet.  We will not be truly civilized until we stop killing each other and start cooperating globally.

"Also stop the childish name calling I think were both adults here so please act like it."

- Now your hypocrisy is starting to overwhelm me.  You called me how many names in this same exact post?

I don't ever recall using childish name calling.  I try not to lower myself to that level.

Also, you seem to be confused by the term "perverted."  Just because someone is pointing something out to you, does not mean they are insulting you.  Only an inflated ego would take something so personally.  Your distorted views aren't something to be ashamed of, they're merely causes of our current society.  You too can break free from your sense of pride and anger issues if you merely stop and pause and reflect on why you're becoming angry next time it happens.

In your last post you basically describe a commune.  Communes are happening all over the world and are nothing new.  And if they sound like a wonderful idea to you, then I highly recommend you joining one.  But they will not solve the Earth's social problems.  The entire planet needs to be transformed, not just small villages here and there.

[Jeffery Martin Cromer]

Our mutual dislike aside. What do you think of this? I think a good debate could be had...

What a person would get for doing the specialty good work he was capable of would be the case for everyone else in a given community that lost faith in the idea of money. The barber would cut hair for his food and shelter and clothing. The doctor would help people, not to get money to buy the stuff he wants and needs, but only because it is his passion and he two would receive his wants/need for his work. Also in this community they don't live "in the dirt" as we did before civilization, you could call it Tribalism 2.0 . The computer and network maker, would do his work for his wants/ needs, same as the gardener, car maker, furniture maker, and so forth. Also thing would be made on demand not in stalk pile for because since they would no longer believe in money, there wouldn't be as much greed. Everyone would still be an individual as we all are but would not have to viciously compete with each other in a capitalistic manner as it is today. Since the community would ensure every one is taken well care of, because if the man or woman in charge of servicing the electricity storage unit fell ill or passed before she could teach another the whole group would suffer, as in tribalism when a hunter died if there were no other skilled ones they could of starved to death. This is a be it infant blue print for a new way of life but at least I'm trying to use my brain to fathom new ways for everyone to exist comfortably. I think there are some pretty solid ideas here. I would love some feed back if you can pull yourselves away from the consumerism, and tracking devices, I mean Iphones for two seconds:)jk, I know your not all like that.